Orbán: Putin is weak, Putin is strong, Ukraine is not a sovereign country

Hungary's Prime Minister does not consider last weekend's events in Russia to be of great significance. Viktor Orbán said that the fact that Yevgeny Prigozhin, the leader of the Wagner mercenary army, had incited a rebellion against the Russian leadership and his troops had marched towards Moscow was not a sign of weakness, because the conflict was resolved within 24 hours. The Prime Minister gave an interview to Bild, one of Europe's most widely circulated newspapers, in which he also said that the Hungarian intelligence services were reliable and that they had told him that Prigozhin's action was not really important.

"You know, Putin is the president of Russia. So if anyone speculates that he might fail or be replaced, they don't understand the Russian people and the Russian power structures," Orbán told the journalist.

Asked whether Putin was weakened because he may have temporarily lost control, as Prigozhin's mercenaries were advancing towards Moscow without being stopped, Orbán said:

"If this could happen, it is a clear sign of weakness. But the fact that he managed to solve this within 24 hours is a sign of strength".

When asked how it was that he still considered him strong, he replied, "Because it's Russia. Russia works and operates differently from European countries."

He was also asked whether he thought Putin would still be president in 2024. He was quite clear in his answer.

"Of course, this is reality."

His attention was drawn to the frequent talk these days of a possible weakening of the Russian government, to which Orbán retorted that in wartime "talking about war is part of war, so it's just propaganda". Here the journalist pointed out that Putin did appear weak for a few hours during Wagner's march, and although he said he would punish Prigozhin, in the end, the mercenary army chief was allowed to go to Belarus. Again, Orbán said that this is Russia, it works differently from us.

"Russia has very stable structures. They are based on the army, the secret service, and the police, so it's a different kind of country, it's a military-oriented country. So don't forget that the Russians are not a country like us, Germany or Hungary. It is a different world. Different structure, different power, different stability. So if we use our logic to understand how they operate, we will always be wrong."

Asked what could topple Putin these days, the Prime Minister said no one knows, he is a stable leader, "Russia's elected leader, he is popular and the structures behind him are quite strong. So we have to take the whole Russian complex seriously."

Orbán reiterated that the last time he had talks with Putin was in February last year, before the war, when they talked a lot about Ukraine. According to the Prime Minister, Putin told him that the Ukrainian army was very strong and that the West had equipped them well, and that the soldiers were well trained. "So if there is a conflict, it will be a very, very difficult conflict. I got the impression that despite this, he believes that time is on Russia's side." The Hungarian Prime Minister had already spoken about this at an event in Berlin last October.

The speech Orbán gave in Budapest in 1989, in which he called for the withdrawal of Soviet troops from Hungary, was mentioned in the interview. Decades later, why did he in a sense put his country on the side of Russia, and why is he still considered a friend of Putin's even in Europe, he was asked.

"Are you provoking me with this question? – Orbán asked back. – 'You know, telling Hungarians that we are pro-Russian or friends of the Russians is contrary to our historical experience.

I am fighting for Hungary. I don't care about Putin. I don't care about Russia. I care about Hungary"

– Orbán said that what he was doing was in the interests of Hungarians because the war between Russia and Ukraine is dangerous for Hungarians.

“We have lost lives, Hungarian minorities live there. The danger resulting from the war is in our neighbourhood. It's not like you, you know, you are Germans, you have Poles and Hungarians between Russia and the Ukrainian war.”

Moreover, Orbán believes that this kind of cooperation between the West and Ukraine is a failure, which is why

he believes it is impossible for Ukraine to win the war against Russia.

By way of explanation, he said, "First of all, I am not arguing against the Ukrainians. So I don't want to appear as someone who doesn't hope that Ukrainians have a chance to survive. But I am standing on the ground of reality. The reality is that the kind of cooperation between Ukraine and the West is a failure." The Prime Minister said that it is a misunderstanding of the situation that the Ukrainians are fighting on the front line, we are supporting them with material, information and equipment, and in this way they can win the war against Russia.

To clarify, he added that he meant the outcome of the war: "The problem is that Ukraine will run out of soldiers before Russia does, and that will be the deciding factor in the end. This is the reason why I always argue. I do not want to influence the Ukrainians, but I always argue for peace, peace, peace." The Prime Minister said that otherwise, Ukraine will lose huge amounts of wealth and many lives, and unimaginable devastation will occur. Therefore peace is the only solution, which at this moment means a ceasefire. "So I'm arguing on this basis, how to reach the fastest way and a ceasefire."

Orbán said that peace depends on the Americans only.

What really matters is what the Americans want to do. Ukraine is no longer a sovereign country. They have no money. They have no weapons. They can only fight because we in the West support them. So if the Americans decide they want peace, there will be peace."

They also talked about the responsibility of diplomacy, because Orbán believes that the war should be solved through diplomacy and not military means. But at the beginning "diplomacy failed and now the army dictates what happens. We have to take back politics and diplomacy, ceasefire and negotiations into our hands. That is the only way we can save lives at this moment."

In response to a question, the Prime Minister said that of course, Ukrainians have the right to decide whether or not to go to war, but we have the right to decide whether to give weapons and money "if that is what the Americans want". Hungary will therefore not give money or weapons because it wants a ceasefire, he said.

He was also asked why, if Putin were winning the war, he would not go further, and why he would stop at Ukraine, and Orbán replied that he thought it was because they were not strong enough.

"And the history of this war clearly shows that NATO is much stronger than Russia. Why would someone who is weaker want to attack NATO?"

The International Criminal Court in The Hague issued an arrest warrant for Putin for war crimes in March. In Germany, Putin would be arrested as soon as he set foot on the ground, in Hungary too? – the Prime Minister was asked and replied evasively: "I have no information that he wants to come to Hungary. So this hypothesis has no reality at all. It's just a hypothesis."

He was then asked more specifically about his position on Putin.

Bild: “Is he a war criminal for you?”

Orbán: "No. Not for me."

Bild: “Why not?”

Orbán: "Because we are in a war. We can talk about war crimes after the war. If you want a ceasefire and then negotiate, we have to convince those who are part of the conflict to come to the table. Asking them to come to the table and saying 'come to the table and I will arrest you' is not a good idea. That's how we can discuss, that's how we can discuss all these legal consequences and criminal consequences or as part of peace. So it is totally inappropriate to talk about that at the moment."

On Ukraine's membership of NATO, he said that he did not think it was an issue at the moment, because no one who is at war can be a NATO member.